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Thread July 18, 2015 editorial: comments

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1 July 18, 2015 editorial: comments

Live Sound Burnout Syndrome

I had an annoying experience at a gig recently. My band was playing at a music festival in which there was a very good sound system, and everything onstage was miked. As a result, I didn’t worry about turning up my guitar amp any louder than was necessary to hear myself. The front of house mixer had my back — or so I assumed.

After the set, I talked to friends who were in the audience, and discovered that my guitar was almost inaudible out front. WTF? Apparently, this sound guy was asleep at the switch. My assumption was that he just didn’t give a shit. We were just one of many bands playing over the course of the day, and he was too lazy to put in the effort to mix us correctly. Now, please if any of you out there are live sound mixers, don’t take this wrong, but I have noticed this attitude frequently among many (but not all) soundpeople — at clubs especially. I’ve also talked to musician friends of mine who’ve experienced the same thing.

There must be something about having to mix a lot of bands, day in and day out, that turns a lot of live sound engineers into grumpy old men who don’t give a damn. On some level, I sympathize, because, especially at clubs with multiple band bills (which are most clubs these days), the house sound person has to deal with many bands every night, some of whom play too loud or show very little respect and complain on the mic about the monitors. But still...If they’re going to do that job, why not try to do their best?

Sure, club sound engineers need a lot of patience to deal with so many musicians on a regular basis, some of whom are jerks or treat the microphones and other sound gear carelessly. But hey, we all have challenges in our jobs, but they don’t make us just stop caring. (At least I hope not.)

So what do you think? Have you had similar experiences with the sound personnel at the clubs and other venues you play? 

Show first post
11
Quote:
And having a short list of decent board ops to offer helps, too.

Good suggestion! I'm sure that in clubs, part of the problem with the quality of the engineers is that the pay is shitty, which means you don't get the creme de la creme, to put it mildly. As a rule, club owners have never been known for their generosity.
12
Quote:
People like that should really just pack up and make room for enthusiastic sound guys.

I agree with you. It's frustrating to run up against these burn-out types when you know there are qualified people out there who would want to do a good job and would get creative satisfaction from making the band sound its best in the house.
13
Curiously I was talking about this very subject to my sons, who also play, tonight. How there are some REALLY angry live sound guys - hey, if they don't want to do it, give the job to someone who loves the live music scene........

As regards out of control sound levels, you can tell my Tinnitus all about it.
14
I'm constantly impressed these days with the discouraging level of attention or training demonstrated by people who are producing the sound at concerts or public events... I'm a recording engineer of some years and experience having taught audio skills at University level out of the gate in my early 20's and now as a record producer in my own studio. I'm fortunate to have lots of professional musicians as close friends and lately when we find ourselves at concerts ( I'm talking large, high dollar events...) the quality of the mix can be from less than attentive to outright trash... By outright trash, I mean something you'd expect of a chimpanzee with major hearing loss...

In the past month, we've been at events with friends from the Doobie Brothers band, and Tower of Power and others who have all independently complained of a really "bad sound mix"... This is something I'm all too aware of and it seams to be getting worse in recent years. The sound people in the most recent cases have been both young and old so my first theory that they are inexperienced has been deflated. The experienced sound man was suffering from presbecosis ( loss of high frequency sensitivity attributed to ageing ) which was painfully apparent in his mix as an edgy, grating high end which was so bad it hurt. The other event was a young sound engineer running the board at a large public forum event, and was typical of someone who just isn't paying any attention during the performance... thinking their job was done when they completed the "sound-check". I've experienced this now many times over the years and my wife is very tired of my complaints about the tragedy of great musical performances that are ruined by" bad sound".

https://en.audiofanzine.com/on-stage-backstage/forums/t.9440,ever-experience-bad-sound-at-a-public-concert-or-event,post.20814.html
15
WOW,
Well to be honest I don't know where to start.
I guess I'll start like this, I am sorry you had such a crappy experience.
I am both a musician and an audio engineer both live and in the studio and have been for over 40 years.
So I am going to address the cocky grad first, You know what we who have done tours and been doing real world audio for many years say to a ___________ (Insert your favorite School name here) Graduate? Get me a cup of coffee. So many snot nose I got a piece of paper "Audio Engineers" haven't got a real world handle coming out of any school period, never seen a exception in 40 years, So while you have a theoretic understanding and you probably do have a bit of a jump on the wanna be rock star that couldn't make it and decided to do sound you still aren't gods gift to audio. So now to handle the issue with bad sound Clubs pay for crap, so any real tech is either doing a fill in for a few bucks, in between real gigs or wouldn't touch the club with a ten foot pole. Most Club owners are pimps and pusher, pushing booze and pimping bands and techs.
It is true there are a number or very poor sound techs in the clubs, however there are also good techs that have been burned out by egotistical deva legends in their own mind band members. Unfortunately by the time your band comes up they are like yea yea, whatever dude, get on get off get paid is all I care, Sad I know but true. I can offer some insight that might just help though, first get there early even if your a later band and kind of pay attention to the other bands and police each others attitude, if you hear a deva call them out and tell them to knock it off, I can guarantee your band just went to the top of the sound techs list of people to treat right and he WILL BE PAYING ATTENTION during your set. Next idea is to realize the audio engineer is the unseen member of your band, if he is any good he is playing the sound gear like you play your instrument. I don't care how good your lick is if people can't hear who cares. I had a national band come into a theater I was the house engineer for and their sound tech could make it to the show, and the tour manager started getting cocky with me while I was helping load his band in(which I was not required to do)and instead of saying hey listen we are jammed up and we could really use your help, he had this attitude like the house sound guy was going to get the greatest gift of his life and be able to run sound for them. I told the guy with a joking tone be nice to the sound guy he has a big YOU SUCK button and he isn't afraid to use, to which the jackass replied but we don't suck and I responded the audience won't know that cause if the sound man says you suck you suck.... He then asked where is the sound guy, he wants to talk to him. I said Hello, I will be your sound tech for tonight, would you like to start this conversation over? Bottom line if you are smart it is a good idea to have a sound tech as a "EQUAL" member of the band he will know your music and what it takes to make you sound the best. However if you don't have that, then do more them buy the tech drinks, be good to him and help him deal with the other Deva bands, nothing works better to keep the BS down then bands policing themselves.
When it's all said and done this is only my two cents and maybe not so humble opinion, but it is honest and genuine.
KEEP ROCKIN THE RIGHT WAY ! ! !

"Music expresses feeling and thought, without language;
It was below and before speech, and it is above and beyond all words.
I believe music visits the places where
conversations are not welcome.

16
Man, some of these stories sound like "noise nightmares" of the worse kind! Even though I've 'visited' quite a few clubs where the music sounded terrible because of horrendous "mixing", as a pianist for mainly small Jazz bands (thank goodness) that was never a major problem for us. Usually, our audiences tended to be of the "laid back" variety, so volume levels were generally kept at a level that would never lead to a busted eardrum. As we get older, we usually tend to want to actually 'listen' to what a band is actually playing, as opposed to getting caught up in a crowd's raucous energy.

However, I must say, as a fan of all types of music, almost nothing is worse than spending hours listening to a garbled mishmash of ill-balanced instruments. (That's NOT entertainment)!
17
Quote:
It is true there are a number or very poor sound techs in the clubs, however there are also good techs that have been burned out by egotistical deva legends in their own mind band members.

It's interesting to note that musicians tend to see sound engineers as grumpy burnouts or outright incompetents, while sound engineers see musicians as insensitive divas. Clearly, better communication would help both sides. The crappy working conditions at many clubs undoubtedly compounds the tension. Since that's unlikely to change, we all need to keep in mind that the goal is to create great music, whether we're onstage or in the sound booth. Having an adversarial relationship between the band and the sound engineer doesn't work out in anybody's favor.
18
Quote from LHGriffin:
WOW,
Well to be honest I don't know where to start.
I guess I'll start like this, I am sorry you had such a crappy experience.
I am both a musician and an audio engineer both live and in the studio and have been for over 40 years.
So I am going to address the cocky grad first, You know what we who have done tours and been doing real world audio for many years say to a ___________ (Insert your favorite School name here) Graduate? Get me a cup of coffee. So many snot nose I got a piece of paper "Audio Engineers" haven't got a real world handle coming out of any school period, never seen a exception in 40 years, So while you have a theoretic understanding and you probably do have a bit of a jump on the wanna be rock star that couldn't make it and decided to do sound you still aren't gods gift to audio. So now to handle the issue with bad sound Clubs pay for crap, so any real tech is either doing a fill in for a few bucks, in between real gigs or wouldn't touch the club with a ten foot pole. Most Club owners are pimps and pusher, pushing booze and pimping bands and techs.
It is true there are a number or very poor sound techs in the clubs, however there are also good techs that have been burned out by egotistical deva legends in their own mind band members. Unfortunately by the time your band comes up they are like yea yea, whatever dude, get on get off get paid is all I care, Sad I know but true. I can offer some insight that might just help though, first get there early even if your a later band and kind of pay attention to the other bands and police each others attitude, if you hear a deva call them out and tell them to knock it off, I can guarantee your band just went to the top of the sound techs list of people to treat right and he WILL BE PAYING ATTENTION during your set. Next idea is to realize the audio engineer is the unseen member of your band, if he is any good he is playing the sound gear like you play your instrument. I don't care how good your lick is if people can't hear who cares. I had a national band come into a theater I was the house engineer for and their sound tech could make it to the show, and the tour manager started getting cocky with me while I was helping load his band in(which I was not required to do)and instead of saying hey listen we are jammed up and we could really use your help, he had this attitude like the house sound guy was going to get the greatest gift of his life and be able to run sound for them. I told the guy with a joking tone be nice to the sound guy he has a big YOU SUCK button and he isn't afraid to use, to which the jackass replied but we don't suck and I responded the audience won't know that cause if the sound man says you suck you suck.... He then asked where is the sound guy, he wants to talk to him. I said Hello, I will be your sound tech for tonight, would you like to start this conversation over? Bottom line if you are smart it is a good idea to have a sound tech as a "EQUAL" member of the band he will know your music and what it takes to make you sound the best. However if you don't have that, then do more them buy the tech drinks, be good to him and help him deal with the other Deva bands, nothing works better to keep the BS down then bands policing themselves.
When it's all said and done this is only my two cents and maybe not so humble opinion, but it is honest and genuine.
KEEP ROCKIN THE RIGHT WAY ! ! !


I pretty much agree with all of this, including the sad but true bit. While club managers should care more as the sound can effect business, or sound guys should only do the job if they truly love it, unfortunately that isn't the reality.

That's why it always makes sense to make friends with the sound guy(s). Buying drinks, having a normal conversation with them that doesn't have to do with your band and how you want your band to sound, calling out other musicians when they're being divas, etc.

Unfortunately, in your case, Mike, it was a festival. I agree that at festivals, there should be a higher standard.
19
Quote:
That's why it always makes sense to make friends with the sound guy(s). Buying drinks, having a normal conversation with them that doesn't have to do with your band and how you want your band to sound, calling out other musicians when they're being divas, etc.

Good points. Another useful way to improve your relations with the sound engineer is to thank him onstage during the set. If you play the club regularly, you'll probably see him again, so giving him props now will pay off in the long run.
20
Hello, Mike.
We’re sorry to hear about that frustrating experience you had. Unless one has the luxury of having one’s own sound engineer, one can come across lackadaisical engineers, or those with their ‘own idea’ of how to do things; plus the fact, they might not know your music and what it requires.

A few years back, after seeing too many bands badly mixed at live shows/ festivals and on TV, even fantastic, famous groups, we decided to cut the sometimes poor decision-making of sound engineers completely out of the equation. What we do is put everything into a compact mixer onstage, adjust the basic volumes accordingly, go out front to check the sound and apply effects and EQ ourselves. We just give a mono line-out to the venue’s or festival’s sound engineer who, although a little bemused at first, actually seems rather pleased! He just sits there taking it easy and drinking his beer! In this way, the sound engineer cannot interfere with the balance of instruments. He can only turn the general volume up and down.

We don’t have to fiddle with the desk because the basic volume balance is set. When one of us does a solo we can use a volume pedal, different patch, etc., to boost the volume accordingly. In smaller (and larger) venues, having an overall mixed sound is also much more balanced than having a backline providing the sound. It’s also much more bearable for the band’s ears! With a backline, people in the audience can hear certain instruments much louder depending on where they are in the room. The sound becomes skewed and unrepresentative.

Well, anyway, as you asked for other people’s thoughts on this, I thought I’d mention it. We’ve done 450 concerts like that with our own mixed sound and believe me, it’s such a relief to be in control!

Regarding your comment about bands having an out-of-control sound, I couldn’t agree more. Far too often, I cannot enjoy a live group because they childishly want to be louder than each other or louder than the loudest group they’ve heard. A few days ago, I went to a concert by a rock band. They put in a fine performance individually, but the sound was way over-the-top – the backline and drummer were so loud that I couldn’t even have the fun of watching them out front. I had to stand by the door and even that was too loud! The people who did go out front were equipped with ear plugs! It’s crazy to do that to the audience, not to speak of highly detrimental to the hearing of the band members. When it’s so loud, the music becomes pain instead of pleasure.

Wishing you all the best and “bonne continuation,” as they say over here, with your music and gigs.

Rock on!
Astra.
British near Le Mans, France.

Astra: Lead Guitarist, Singer-Songwriter.

www.astramusic.org

[ Post last edited on 07/23/2015 at 06:10:03 ]